Well I hate to read this. You are a great person and I am sorry so see you leave. I understand why you are leaving and I hope you find what your are looking for. We will be here for you once you want to return. Good luck and keep intouch.

Thanks all for the good and kind words, and Ill always be around but you probably wont see me much in Steam or xfire as my current net isnt strong enough to run the programs and games at the same time.

and yes i am refering to the no swearing rule and yes i know its always been in place since the clans begining, and i really dont have a problem with the rule, its the things that came about because of the rule.

granted all i dont know what all was said and what went on so i'll only speak from what i know and what ive heard. the ptt (push to talk) thing doesnt really bother me to much either as ive been using the setting for months now, becuase i had a really bad chest cold for 2 weeks and i didnt want to be sneezing and coughing in everyones hear so i switch to ptt and actually got use to it and jsut stayed with it. however using the ptt as a clan rule kinda seems to me a little wrong. with same games requiring so much of your attention and buttons these days for expample like BF and COD the fast past to me doesnt seem to fit with having to ptt everytime yo want to communicate with your spuad/team (granted more dicussion would be needed to explain my views on this) and to me in a beating around the bush way swearing has been allowed in the clan its just always been frowned upon. example we all know certain members swear when they die like "$*#! he just killed me" or "S*&! he just killed me" for some of us its just as natural to say that as saying "Hi" to a friend. it done subconciously. and when it happened you usually got a friendly reminder from some like "hey" or "thats not allowed" or " no swearing"

the way i remember the "no swearing rule" being handled is this;
1 let an officer be the first to verbally wanr offendering
1a if theres no officer verbal mention the rule to the offender
2 repeat step 1a
3 report offense to an online officer through messaging programs
3a if theres no online officer report offender to your GC through PM or email
4 if no action taken be GC or offender continues report offender to the CLB
4a if no action is taken by GC or CLB, mute offender in TS ( ok. so i made this one up lol)

and of course all actions require some documention that the action was taken

thats how i remember it simple, precise, and effective. so what changed? the members of BBF and yes im pointing the finger at everyone in BBF with that statement including myself. as members changed and went abcense and returned the rules of BBF got misconstuded and eventually noone stated to uphold the rules which in turn placed everything on the CLB. so the CLB decided well if GC's and officers wont do their job then we will do it for you and for the whole clan, hence the current CLB ordered rules of onlybeing able to use ptt and no swearing being overly enforced opinion.

and to me the reason members stopped verbally warning or submitting repremand request is because well some GC's didnt have the guts to do it or the GC thought well the offender is my frined so im not goin to do anything.

and the last statement of "well he/she is my friend im not goin to do anything" is what killed some of the clan and has what brought the clan to what it is.

atleast thats what i think caused most of the problems that we now must deal with and have to live with and to me have only been band-aid solved. that old ways worked but everyone must know the rules, what they are, how to follow them, how to deal with rule breakers, and respect the rules and their fellow gamers/clan memebrs. and most of us failed here because when we would recruit someone we assumed the new recruit read the rules (and assuming is the mother of all %^*@ ups in my opinion) so maybe a simpler way to deal with new recruits and current members is to hae everyone study the charter and then be required to take a test on it, and at the point of the test there should be a standing order that "no ones position or memebr status in BBF is secure until you have taken the test (including recruits, members, officers, and CLB" and should you fail the test you will be kicked from the clan for not knowing and understanding the rules. you may reapply but you still have to take the test, and new recruits should be required to take the test and pass before they can sport new polished unstained BBF tags.

my opinion on how to handle/change some of the currents bickering problems of BBF

naturally further discussion(s) would be required in order to hash out some of the minor detaills i may have left out/forgotten to mention

DakotaNut

Yeah, it had just gotten out of hand to the point where no one was enforcing the rule even when someone asked people not to swear. Unfortunately, this meant cracking down on it and offending a few guys who had the "you can't tell me what to do" attitude. A couple guys left because they didn't want to censor themselves on TS for anyone, as if they didn't have to respect others. This is unfair to others.

Most members don't mind if a swear word comes out now and then, but it was to the point where you could hear the F-bomb dropped very often even after members asked players to stop. When we start receiving open complaints on the forum, then track the issue and find it is way out of hand, we have to take drastic measures if normal methods are not working.

Believe me, we tried 'normal' methods of asking members, giving warnings, and rather than start singling people out further, we simply put an end to it. We did not resort to kicking individuals because we shouldn't have to. It was more of a division problem with specific games (COD series) than specific individuals.

Really, this should cover the offensive swearing and other issues members may have:

Prime Directive: BBF represents Honor, Fairness, and RespectBack to Top

Honor: To win and lose while displaying good sportsmanship.
Fairness: To not cheat or knowingly allow others to cheat.
Respect: To treat all persons in the online gaming community with respect.

All BBF members are to uphold these values above all other considerations.

General Order 1:We do not support or condone any form of cheating.
General Order 2: All members of the online community are to be treated with respect and dignity.
General Order 3: A member may not, under any circumstances, play for another clan in a game that is competitively supported by BBF.


I try to avoid swearing in the clan because I know it can offend others. I am being respectful when I do not swear. It doesn't work quite the same flipping it around and having someone say 'I put up with people swearing because I respect them'. They will just stop playing the game most likely, which is how you then end up with a clique of friends who swear.

Sure, we have a couple guys who feel "BBF" can't tell them not to swear....but the majority of the clan is fine with being flexible and respecting others.




It's too bad you were not able to be part of the discussions. Believe me, we have discussed this issue in detail through lengthy debates many times. I'm sure it will happen again someday. All I have to say is, if you can't have fun without swearing, then BBF is not the clan for you. There are plenty of clans out there who's members swear like sailors.



I agree with the charter thing too. That's why I did add a check box to have people agree to having read the charter. I also go as far as asking recruits questions sometimes when I feel they may not have read the charter. Each GC also has the ability to request whatever questions they want on their join application (you had this for CODBO as well).


I think the push to talk could be GC specific. Again, there were only a few members overall who didn't like this change (some of whom where the reason it was implemented). I know past GC's for the BF and COD series enforced it to reduce extra chatter, feedback from speakers, and background noise.

For this issue, why not simply bring it up for discussion in the private forum? How can we make positive changes if no one suggests changes? We need to speak up when we want to make changes so we at least know we were heard. Not sit back and complain long after.

Paco is 100% on everything here. There is no reason why every other word has to be a swear word and if that is how you are as a person then I am sorry but BBF is not the place for you.

The PTT key is a great idea but I do see both side here and I am ok with someone not using it as long as there is not excessive talking with any meaning or back ground noise. We you are trying to talk to someone and all you here is yourself saying it 2 or 3 times at the same time that is very annoying.

I am here for everyone and one of our core values is respect and that means everyone. I do not micromanage people so I do not try to sneak around and spy on GC and what they do. Everyone should know the rules and if everyone followed them then I would have nothing to do at all but people do not. So because people do not do what they are supposed to do we cannot be everywhere at once so when a member come to us and tells us something we have to follow-up on it. If we find something we have to deal with it. We are all human too so we make mistakes as well and do not always deal with ever situation right but we do try. But we always talk about things before they come down. We are always open to other opinion but we also know we cannot make everyone happy but we do try.

Like paco said The GC have to post stuff if that want us to look at things and see if we can make things better. BBF is not my clan, or paco, hisgun, cg, or anyone person clan. BBF is every single members clan and everyone has opinions and we are open to lessoning.

Seeya Dakota. I hope you have fun with your other clan I always enjoyed playing Black Ops with you! I do hope you come back though

A few games seem to have dropped for some time. Anyway, you will be missed. Keep in touch with your record is good, the door is open any time.

Well i would agree with some of what was stated, but not all of what was stated. There was a few times i popped into BBF TS back in Feb and other then the PTT rule nothing changed still heard some swearing which to me is fine. even in the real world you hear more and more people openly swear. plus there is still the BBF cliques where if you got one guy in a channel you can see all of his friends in that channel. for example like when Ohamis was GC you had him and his friends there, then when he left so did his friends, which crippled Black Ops for BBF.

and yes i had all those options and used them just not openly on the forums, because i figured the best way to 'test' someone was to kinda ambush them in TS, or other messaging programs like steam. My logic was if you ask them on the forums they can simply search the forums for the right answer. If you catch them of guard you can more precisely determine if they actually read the charter.

and yes i am fully aware that most of the swearing debates that occured was because of the Black Ops division when it was under my command. Which brings to the mind the question "why didnt I do anything about it?" "well simply put the swearing was among friends, who didnt mind it, the swearing wasnt meant in a disrespectfull manner, and it wasnt to be interperated as demeaning or hurtfull.

Quote "but it was to the point where you could hear the F-bomb dropped very often even after members asked players to stop. When we start receiving open complaints on the forum, then track the issue and find it is way out of hand, we have to take drastic measures if normal methods are not working."

this statement in and of itself i have many issues with. Yes i can understand how to some people they would see the swearing out of control. my question is to the ones that openly complian about someone on the forums "WHY didnt they take it to an officer, why didnt they take it to a CLB memebr, and finally what happened to not openly pointing the finger at someone or group in the clan?" IF everyone in BBF past and present want to blame me and say i was a terrible GC for this matter then, I say "let them say it"

Quote "For this issue, why not simply bring it up for discussion in the private forum? How can we make positive changes if no one suggests changes? We need to speak up when we want to make changes so we at least know we were heard. Not sit back and complain long after. "

I completely agree with this statement however, there is one HUGE flaw in it, and that is 98% of BBF members wont speak up and post about a change and this is because most of them feel that 1) it wont make a difference if they speak up or not 2) that BBF is being run as a dictatorship unlike when before it was more open to members and their thoughts on different things (past and present members) 3) and for some of them its just easier to complain and whine about it rather then post or discuss issues. 4) and this is a never ending problem for any clan time zones make ever major and minor issue that is under discussion a big problem

so would bring this up in private forums, but i seem to no longer have access to them. plus some members dont even read the forums and if they do they dont check the private that often (i know i had to remind certian members to read the forums for updates/news and general issues that were resolved on the forums) in fact id be willing to bet that the most of the current members that dont know me didnt even bother to read this thread. so i maybe pissing off some people by continueing this about the swearing and overall general rules system, but hey thats what a Nut does pisses people off while secretly knowing some people are glad that someone is speaking up and saying something.

so i leave this post with a question, "why sit back and wait until the next big "no swearing" deabte occurs, why not hash ever aspect of it out now and include all members and try to have TS discussions, that is if anyone else is up to rehashing the swearing and others perticular rules they maybe some of them dont like discussion?" hears an idea to see if everyone is will to do this hold a vote to see if people do want to have Adult and mature discussions about the charter and rules, then hold another vote to see what they want to discuss, then actually discuss the issues members are not perticularly happy with, then if nessicary, change the charter or just certian rules.
If people are willing to step up and put on the table what they dont like or would like to see changed, I'll be back to and willing to discuss and give ideas or my opinions on things, afterall who knows it could make BBF even better or atleast make to where some members dont complain about things in the long run.

My thoughts and opinions on this post and the way i see.
again,
Sincerly,
DakotaNut

Just responding because I'm a member who's read this stuff.. :P

--Micah

[quote="[BBF"]DakotaNut]
...when Ohamis was GC you had him and his friends there, then when he left so did his friends, which crippled Black Ops for BBF....
[/quote]
We actually benefited from losing most of the Ohamis clique. Was one of the good changes our clan made as it was dying off from a lack of activity (coincidence because we had allowed swearing?), getting rid of a clique who didn't care about the Charter, BBF, or their fellow gamers. It's not the first group of guys who formed a clique and left, but probably one of the most immature.

I have to ask: where were you the last 10 years? You have to be involved on the forum if you expect to be involved in the discussions affecting the clan.

Doors have been open too: www.clanbbf.com/Thread-Member-Qu ... Complaints

You also had access to the CLB forum when you were GC.

I did shut down one member bringing up the swearing issue in the private forum....because we had just gotten done going over it with multiple discussions......at some point we have to say STOP! MOVE ON! LET IT BE FOR A WHILE!

We usually allow for discussions on the same old issues again later on....and I remember plenty of discussions on age limit, swearing, double clanning, leadership responsibilities, member responsibilities, the charter, TS, etc.



You have to be involved to help make changes you can feel proud of. I am proud to be in BBF even though it is a lot of work sometimes and feels more like a job than gaming when we have to go over 'big' issues.


I do wish you well and hope you decide to come back and game with us. Was really looking forward to you being active and had you in mind for leading Tribes if you wanted to be active. It wouldn't work well if you want to swear though as the rule currently is that you have to be respectful of others.

I'm not 'for' rampant swearing and yes it has gotten way out of hand before however I'm reading some things that must be addressed because that's not all that happened.

Chain of Command was broken in both directions.

Most of us feel we can't be involved. Why? Because when we do say something we're asked 'Where were you the last 10 years of this clan?' like it should matter. It was in fact the worst thing a manager/officer could ask. It's not an answer. NO ONE must be a 10 year veteran to have a voice or be treated fairly or have any say in what might benefit a group. If being 10 year veteran is a requirement and is true, then (I hope not) this clan is no more than a pyramid. You all must admit, some things laid down in the beginning were good, some were broken. Over time, new members trying to work on things helped us grow, fixing things, expanding and getting better. Right? I think so. Only new perspective can fix or change things. New members have brought good things and perspectives.

(on a side note) I honestly think any position above a RC should be held for no more than 2 years with a year break between, all voted in by the Command at that time. HR not withstanding in the change cuz Hisgun is just that awesome Why? We all know that as people settle into positions they develop bad habits. I've seen 10 and 20 year managers in all sorts of positions totally out of control. Seen it at work, seen it here, seen it in myself. Maybe we get bitter because we simply aren't really meant to be in that spot, having no true people skills or maybe we're so burnt out we don't even realize it. Happens to the best of us. Not all are like this but most serving long term in fact are. It's why we vote throughout our political system. True checks and balances.

Simple answer to quelling this drama in leadership groups (in clans, in work place, in home lives, in sports teams, w/e) lies in our very own definition of Chain of Command. STOP and listen. Many think they know what it means but do in fact NOT. It's not just from the newer members looking upward, skipping past their (hypothetical situation) GC to some higher authority to tattle, causing trouble and getting away with it. Far worse is when the leadership micromanages, chasing down every thing the new members bring up, cutting out the middle officers in the decision making process which in turn ultimately undermines the authority and organization of the Chain of Command thus breaking it. The result IS a dictatorship. For it to work it must exist in both directions. Breaking the Chain of Command has sank many a clan, crew, team, band, militia, colony... I'll tell you what we say in the trenches when the 'Brass' has these 'Ideas' haha We call 'em Cluster (Fbomb)'s lol

Seriously, why talk to my GC when I can go straight to someone higher up and make an already stressed out manager/officer look even worse? That's easy here... Happens a lot. Hard part is when the Officer leads by example, showing they deserve their spot by lending an ear with a grain of salt then directing them back to follow the chain of command, placing trust in their officers beneath them. Again, Hisguns wisdom...

Sometimes our GC's aren't really bad guys. Sometimes our Brass aren't either. Sometimes we just need a change or are all frazzled and undermined by those below and above us, leaving us to wonder why we're even trying.

I like the cleaner TS. Respect is good. Vacations are too. Started writing and editing this at 3 am to be direct, respectful, humorous and helpful! Hmmm 550 am... Sleep is also good...