Yes Chaser, I do that sometimes. We all do at times, and sometimes I do it intentionally although I don't always do it in the most organized way. The common saying would be "devil's advocate" where you take a side you don't agree with.


I think we're good if we simply underline "excessive" in the TS rules as it doesn't actually specify swearing isn't allowed. Neither does our charter in the communication rules.



I also think we need to make sure members are aware they can speak up or go to an officer directly above them if there are any issues with excessive swearing.

Obviously, since it is subjective, it will vary and be handled on a case by case basis.

[quote="[BBF"]Puma]
sigh.

I was hoping that their could be a natural balance in teamspeak that has existed well in the past. If you are uncomfortable, please say something in a friendly way to let others know. That way this can be a matter of respect, and not rules. This clan operates so much more smoothly on respect, rather than rules. But alas, here we are having this conversation again because a few people have not spoken up in team speak, and have decided to make this a clan-wide issue again. And the result may very well be many people unwantedly having to enforce constraints on other's habits, comfortableness, and cultural expression. And I have a problem with that.

I would like to treat this from a more realistic perspective. This is a cultural conflict, not a matter of right and wrong. The people that have ultimate authority over this clan, and pay for team speak, have the final say. They may choose to use their own personal opinions to create the rules, or they may choose to have democracy; recognizing the different opinions within the clan and allowing a mutual comfortableness that is flexible for whomever is present within team speak, and allow us to operate on a matter of respect for others, the way we should. Neither of these views are right or wrong.

Also, consider this. You may think it is rude for other people to "swear" in your presence, but I consider it to be just as rude to ask people to alter their natural form of speaking for your own personal comfortableness. It is as though you are saying to someone that your own comfortableness is more important than theirs. Language is very habitual, and is the foundation of cultural and social interaction, and to ask someone to alter it in your presence is asking a much bigger favor, than to ask someone to merely tolerate hearing something that their parents, culture, friends, or religion has told them is wrong. You don't like "Swearing", then don't swear. But don't ask people to stop saying words that aren't hateful, or used for harm, just because you've been taught to dislike it.

Lastly, I have had many conversations on this matter, and have concluded for quite some time that any predispositions toward certain words is a matter of personal taste, and usually have no substance in reason or rational thought. It is important for us to be kind to one another and respect each other, and practicing restraint is just as important as practicing tolerance. Both will take you very far.

So please, if you don't like a word that has no harmful intent, then don't try to enforce your own personal tastes on others. If you honestly can't manage your sanity or peace around this "swearing" then please consider the offenders by showing them enough respect to ask them nicely to practice restraint in your presence, as though they have the capacity and desire to support your tastes. I personally am pretty flexible and have no problems with altering my speech for anyone in this wonderful clan, I love you all. But I don't want people unwillingly enforcing other peoples perspectives, especially when they do not share them.
[/quote]

+1 if pumas method is an option here

I had no intent to single out anybody or make anyone feel 'naughty' for swearing - my only intent was to point out that we have a rule that does not get enforced. Whether that rule gets abolished or enforced does not matter to me in the slightest. I simply wanted to point out our inconsistency, because it rankles me and looks bad to new recruits and visiting members.

I have tried many times to point out in a polite/friendly/easygoing way that the rules about not swearing are there, especially when there have been younger people in the channel or the language has gotten especially vulgar. Usually I get ignored or (in worse cases) mocked. It's very hard to be consistent about trying to pull people up on the rules (any rules) when you get mocked for it, sometimes by people who are higher in rank.

Chaser, I never said swearing was appropriate. I don't believe it's ever appropriate. So I was not, in fact, contradicting myself. I'm sorry you thought that.

Tryingnot: My reason in bringing this to the forum was so that it could be accessed and discussed by everyone in the clan rather than on a personal basis, as I believe it affects the clan as a whole. I did not do it to 'whine or moan' about people. I do not do that.

Just to reiterate: I am not after the banning of swearing or anything of the like. The whole point of this thread was to align our behaviour with the rules, or change our rules. That was all. I'm glad to see there is now a discussion about that happening. Thanks

[quote="[BBF"] EnTIcE]
[quote="[BBF"]Puma]
sigh.


So please, if you don't like a word that has no harmful intent, then don't try to enforce your own personal tastes on others. If you honestly can't manage your sanity or peace around this "swearing" then please consider the offenders by showing them enough respect to ask them nicely to practice restraint in your presence, as though they have the capacity and desire to support your tastes. I personally am pretty flexible and have no problems with altering my speech for anyone in this wonderful clan, I love you all. But I don't want people unwillingly enforcing other peoples perspectives, especially when they do not share them.
[/quote]

+1 if pumas method is an option here

[/quote]
a definite +1 as this is the method that was discussed in TS this evening and was the only one really viable and the way we had been doing things. Granted there will be times when things get out of hand and that is when a higher up need to be contacted and they will decide what action is required for the infraction.

The problem with having such loose rules that are open to so much interpretation is that "getting out of hand" is defined differently by every person. In my opinion, the swearing in TS was getting out of hand (considering the rules) and so I brought it up. And most disagreed with me. My definition of out of hand is different to Person A's definition, and Person A's definition is different to Person B's. Whose do we go by?

I would be quite keen to see a list (as compiled by BBF members) of what words are okay and what words aren't. If all words are voted okay, then cool, maybe we can get rid of the rule about swearing, since spamming the f word over and over wouldn't be any worse than spamming the word 'pony' over and over (and I know doing that would get people in trouble cos of how annoying it'd get lol). Or perhaps all swear words are ok, but never when aimed at another person (f you, etc).

I am not trying to stifle anyone or anything, but I'm sure as a clan we want our TS to be comfortable for as many people as possibly. At the moment, that leans completely towards the people who are swearing-inclined. I don't want it to lean all the other way, but I'd rather see a compromise or at least something clear set out so if people like me who are uncomfortable with swearing can leave TS if it gets too much, secure in the knowledge that it's just a pet peeve (so to speak) rather than also being against the rules.

Ok this is how it is. We have the rules no swearing. Everyone dose it now and then in game and there are others that do it all the time. If something happen in the game and someone lets a work or two out fine, but if it gose on with no end or someone just comes in swearing someone need to say something.

Any Officer in that channel should say something to the person or pensons doing it. If they do not they are just as much to blame as the one that is doing it. If others feel it should not be going on they can report it. There is a chain of command and use it.

Report it, who every it is and if you feel bad about it, PM someone so there is something to where we can go back and talk to them. If you feel like they will make things hard on you PM someone and things should be taken care. If not find me I am always around.

If an Officer dose not do anything he should have time off to think about why he is an Officer and what we stand for as a caln. We have kids in here and they don't need to hear it. I know other are in the same room with there kids and sometimes they hear it.

The rule is NO Swearing so the Officers need to keep it check.

I agree with Itchy completely on this matter. The fact is this rule is in place because we do have minors in this clan and parents who play where their kids can hear what is going on. Now I know what ppl will say is they need to get a headset or dont play while their kids are around. Im sorry if we have to start segregating members so we can appease those that want to swear then THAT should never be considered plain and simple. Look ppl this has been tested this has been proven if we allow ppl to get away with it it will get out of hand and the Leadership will have to get involed we have tried this. You all think that this is something new and we should test drive getting rid of the swearing policy why? Its been done several times each time it failed miserably. It really shocks me that so many GC's are comming forward and saying that they are some of the biggest violators of this policy. You agree when you became an officer to uphold the policy's in place if you felt that a policy is out of date post in CLB to review the policy not just ignore it.

Someone suggested earlier that we should create a Kiddie Zone so ppl can swear no disrespect to the person who posted it but this is exactly I am afraid we are going to start doing you are talking about putting minors in a private channel away from all other clan members because they are minor over half the clan would have to go in there how is this fair. Now please understand I am using this post as an example in no way am I saying that your post should be totally disregarded.

I have created temporary channels in the past in TS for this reason like.... "Drunken Soldiers - 21+ Only" For all of us that like to booze it up and have some drunken fun. Bad language is a given in a room full of drunks. Bring your ID if you don't know the secret word.

[quote="[BBF"]MillerTime]
I have created temporary channels in the past in TS for this reason like.... "Drunken Soldiers - 21+ Only" For all of us that like to booze it up and have some drunken fun. Bad language is a given in a room full of drunks. Bring your ID if you don't know the secret word.
[/quote]

This does not work well. We tried it last year.


I did already suggest that members leave now if they expect to have a right to swear whenever. Unless the rule changes, any member who thinks a few swear words is excessive can voice their opinion on it and the swearing must stop.

That's why I suggest no swearing as it is easier to enforce, is better for the majority, and allows us to recruit those members who don't like to hear swearing.

The "excessive" leaves some room to allow it, but it does not mean we create new channels or members can swear whenever they want.

I also do not find it acceptable to ignore or mock members who don't want to hear swearing. They should be welcome to game with everyone, no matter how often they game or how active they are with the clan.


We are one clan but our motto "Till all are one" is often forgotten by those who swear. Those who like to swear can avoid doing it, but those who don't want to hear the swearing can't avoid hearing, other than by leaving the clan which is quite a ridiculous approach I do see some members present as an option.


If you have to swear to have fun playing games, go find another clan. Likewise, if you can't handle a few swear words now and then, go find another clan.

OR, we change the rule to either totally allow or totally deny swearing.

Use the push to talk feature...you can swear as much as you want, but only your wife/kids/dog will hear it:) if something game relevant comes up press your ptt key and share...this also keeps unnecessary clutter out of the game. On the other hand in the early bfbc2 days there really wasn't much swearing going on.